If you would like to add a comment to any of the threads here on AADB, registration with blogspot.com is not required. Simply click on the ‘comments’ link at the bottom of an essay, and either enter a nickname under ‘choose an identity’ or post your comment anonymously. Serious comments are always welcome.

REQUIEM

Below are the two final essays to be posted on Allegiance and Duty Betrayed. The first one is written by a friend -- screen name 'Euro-American Scum' -- who, over the past four years, has been the most faithful essayist here. He has written about everything from his pilgrimage to Normandy in 2004 to take part in the 60th–year commemoration of the invasion, to his memories of his tour in Vietnam. His dedication to America’s founding principles ... and those who have sacrificed to preserve them over the past 200+ years ... is unequaled. Thank you, E-A-S. It has been a privilege to include your writing here, and it is a privilege to call you my friend.

The second essay is my own farewell. And with it I thank all of the many regular visitors, and those who may have only dropped in occasionally, for coming here. I hope you learned something. I hope a seed or two was planted. But, even if not, I thank you for stopping by ... 25 March, 2010

10/17/2007

Treason Revisited ... or ...
'When Will Enough Be Enough?'

Treason.jpg

I have been wanting to sit down and write a scathing essay on the House’s recent proposed resolution regarding the World War I era genocide perpetrated against Armenians by the Ottoman Empire, but sufficient free time has not presented itself over the past few days.

Last night, John Cooper, a good friend and a regular contributor here, sent me the following article from Investor’s Business Daily. The article says exactly what I would have said, and says it much better, so I offer it here for your consideration as evidence of perhaps the most egregious and evil example of treason under consideration in our lifetimes – because it places our fighting men and women in significantly more grave danger than even the litany of previous treasonous words and actions committed by the American congress.

It is time for a major change in the fabric of ‘leadership’ in America. When a physical revolution becomes the only remaining option for us, we need to pray that our outrage will not be silenced by creatures to whom personal power is more precious than human life and liberty.

Pelosi’s Premium

Congress' foolish move to declare the massacre of Armenians by the Ottoman Empire a genocide will have an impact far beyond politics. It affects you both in your pocketbook and in your security.

No question, Armenians have a right to seek recognition of their people's suffering. The Ottoman Turks slaughtered an estimated 1.5 million Armenians in one of the largest ethnic cleansing operations ever, lasting roughly from 1915 to 1923. It sure seems like genocide to us or at least something very much akin to that odious practice.

But congressional Democrats weren't interested in justice when they voted on this resolution. They had political mischief in mind.

Those who pushed the resolution saw a chance to pander to an aggrieved but well-heeled group Armenian-Americans while damaging U.S. ties with Turkey, a key ally in the war on terror.

For Democrats, what could be better? Shore up their Armenian-American support at home, while making it harder for President Bush to win in Iraq a war Democrats have come to loathe, even though they voted for it. Win-win, as political strategists like to say.

Yet what they actually did was stab U.S. troops in Iraq in the back, forcing the military to scramble to find new ways to supply our soldiers in case the Turks, as threatened, close our base at Incirlik. (More than two-thirds of our Iraq supplies go through that base.)

Not content to merely to make our soldiers' lives more difficult and risky, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her allies have helped create a sharp spike in crude oil prices.

After Turkey's government warned on Oct. 7 that the declaration on Armenian genocide might damage U.S.-Turkey ties, the price of oil jumped from $79.03 a barrel to $87.61 Tuesday, a gain of 11%, or nearly $9 a barrel, in a little over a week.

The Democrats' move, blamed by oil traders for the upsurge in crude, has increased our monthly national oil bill by roughly $3.53 billion at current import rates. That's about $42 billion a year. Call it the Stupidity Tax.

Hit hardest will be the poor. A fuel tax is regressive, meaning it falls heaviest on those at the bottom. We're surprised we've not seen this levy dissected in detail by the mainstream media. But they've gone strangely quiet.

Who knows if oil will continue to rise following the Democrats' attempt to hijack foreign policy? It could trigger a recession one the Democrats and the left-leaning media would blame on Bush.

So as you pull up to the gas pump and watch the digits rise ever higher, please avoid cursing OPEC's potentates or China or Hugo Chavez or whatever. This time, you've paid the Pelosi Premium.

Worse than oil prices, though, are the Pelosi Democrats' intentional damage to our Iraq War effort. Her party doesn't have the courage to end the war by defunding it, which it could do. Instead, it's creating chaos in the Middle East, where Turkey has threatened to send forces into Iraq to pursue Kurdish guerrillas.

On Tuesday, the head of Turkey's parliament warned Pelosi that "it might take decades to heal negative effects of the bill if it passes." Pelosi knows that neither the current government nor any citizens of modern Turkey committed the atrocities against the Armenians. She also knows the horrible timing of the genocide resolution means big trouble for the U.S. Yet she doesn't care.

Well, we do; so should you. Successful democracy depends on goodwill from both sides of the debate. That's now in short supply, at least for one party.

Investor's Business Daily

~ joanie

95 comments:

Al said...
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cw-patriot said...

Interesting that you stumbled upon basically the same point in the article with which I disagree. But I chose not to point it out because the rest of the article is very accurate.

The idea that Armenian Americans wield major political power is ludicrous. And if one compares the amount of influence that Turkey has exerted in U.S. State Department decisions with the amount of influence that Armenian Americans could even dream of throwing around, the ratio would be astronomical.

At the same time, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Pelosi et al chose this particular time -- nearly a century after the holocaust that the Turks perpetrated on the Armenians -- to express 'official remorse', simply as a cleverly calculated political move, designed to embarrass the the administration and stir the cauldron in the Middle East.

Turkey's Erdogan government is not a staunch ally of the U.S. (other than little Taiwan, the only major ally we have enjoyed of late has been Britain, and, with Tony Blair's stepping down, even that alliance is now precarious at best). But straining even the fragile Americas/Turkish 'alliance' right now is nothing more than an attempt by congressional democrats to escalate tensions in Iraq and force a withdrawal of American forces. Their inability to garner a veto-proof majority for legislation that would establish a firm date for retreat has fallen by the wayside. So they are determined to employ more covert means to lose this war -- even if it means putting even more American lives in the terrorists' cross hairs.

Incirlik serves as the trans-shipment location for close to three-quarters of all air cargo (including a third of the fuel) funneled in to supply our forces in Iraq. All of the new MRAP (mine-resistant, ambush-protected) vehicles designed to shield American troops must make their way through Incirlik. This incredibly valuable air base was not always at our disposal, and, should permission to use it be revoked, our troops would lack vehicles, weaponry and materiel extremely necessary for their safety and survival. Interdicting such essential supplies would prove a major blow to the war effort, and would dramatically increase the vulnerability of American troops.

Which is precisely why the democrats would like to see Incirlik off-limits for American air cargo. Which is precisely why a genocide that occurred nearly a century ago is now searing their conscience. Such timely 'altruism' is virutally without historical precedent.

If Armenian Americans are feeling good about the 'recognition' of a century-old genocide (as several responses from their leadership would indicate), they had better re-think. The democrats don't give a damn about past or present genocide, but for the positive political ramifications such overt 'compassion' might engender. Democrats' only purpose in resurrecting the genocide in Armenia is to enrage the Turkish government and put an end to their cooperation in the Iraq war, so that America can pull out, tail between our legs.

If they considered (past or present) genocide the abomination that it is, they would be focusing their sights on Darfur, or passing resolutions about the massacre of Burmese protestors.

The democrats themselves need not be concerned about politically 'alienating' Turkey either. Once Hillary is in the White House, the bretrayal of Israel will continue, full-force, Turkey will be appeased, and the Armenian genocide issue will be forgotten.

Leftists are hypocrites, by definition. This latest ploy simply serves as an example of their attempts to disguise evil as compassion or remorse, neither of which they ever practice, let alone comprehend.

~ joanie

Anonymous said...

Pelosi and her cohorts are traitorous scum.

Anonymous said...

Hmmmm....preventing genocide is not enough reason to stay in Iraq. But it was enough to go to war about Kosovo, where we're still mired down. And it wasn't enough of a reason to meddle in Rwanda. And Bush is a hypocrite because he won't go into Darfur to stop it. There's one set of rules for dems and another for the rest of us.

LouBarakos said...

Pelosi knows that neither the current government nor any citizens of modern Turkey committed the atrocities against the Armenians. She also knows the horrible timing of the genocide resolution means big trouble for the U.S. Yet she doesn't care.

Substitute "Hillary" for "Pelosi" above, and then consider the fact that she's even money to be our next President, and sleep well tonight.

Anonymous said...

The Armenian genocide was a Muslim jihad against Christians and Jews.

smithy said...

Because of a genocide that happened 90 years ago, the dems want to take a position that has no benefit other than stroking the feelings of some long dead people in order to infuriate one of the few allies we have in the Middle East?

Although Turkey is not always taking the position we want them to, they are the most reliable Muslim country in their support of the US, and right now they are fighting their own battle against Muslim extremists.

If we piss off the Turks with this meaningless gesture, more Americans will eventually die in the current battle against Islamofacism. How many Americans should die in 2007 so Armenians will feel better about something that happened 90 years ago?

stonemason said...

The Turks are nothing but third world shakedown artists, but we happen to need their base right now.

Pelosi and her minions should be tarred and feathered and run out of town.

Anonymous said...

I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this [the Armenian genocide]. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared with the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915 ---Henry Morgenthau

Lori_Gmeiner said...

What makes this doubly disgusting is their use of tragedy. It's the "it's for the chidren" ruse, only more sickening because it puts our soldiers in harm's way. Every time I think they can stoop no lower, they do.

trustbutverify said...

When Will Enough Be Enough?

When the government outlaws remotes, and Jerry Springer and American Idol are taken off the air. And not one day sooner!

Anonymous said...

Incirlik serves as the trans-shipment location for close to three-quarters of all air cargo (including a third of the fuel) funneled in to supply our forces in Iraq. All of the new MRAP (mine-resistant, ambush-protected) vehicles designed to shield American troops must make their way through Incirlik. This incredibly valuable air base was not always at our disposal, and, should permission to use it be revoked, our troops would lack vehicles, weaponry and materiel extremely necessary for their safety and survival. Interdicting such essential supplies would prove a major blow to the war effort, and would dramatically increase the vulnerability of American troops.

Exactly why we have to kiss Turkey's a$$.

robmaroni said...

The resolution will never pass on the floor of the House. It's just another exploding cigar for the democrats. But Americans better not forget where the liberals' allegiances lie. This resolutions portrays it in all its ugliness.

al said...
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Anonymous said...

Good article. Thanks.

Proudpodunknative said...

I agree that IBD is stretching the truth a bit talking about the idea that "well healed Armenians" have something to do with this idiotic resolution. They're not so much sucking up to the Armenian Americans as they are sticking it to Bush and undermining our troops. The Armenians just happen to be the convenient weapon they want to use to do just that.

Tom Bergman said...

Not only is this Democrat resolution tantamount to treason, and a poke in the eye to Turkey, it's also an insult to Armenian Americans. Previous administrations (the Clinton one in particular) have refused to call the slaughter genocide, now, when it's politically convenient, the House thinks they can use it to get out of Iraq. Armenian Americans should be furious that they're being used this way.

All_good_men said...

Isn’t it interesting that when Clinton was President, this issue was going to come up for a vote. Five current and previous Secretaries of State warned the consequences of such a vote would be disastrous. Clinton was opposed to the vote then; not now. Do you think there are ulterior motives at work?

Sammy said...
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marcus aurelius said...

There's nothing wrong with the resolution itself. The Turks did commit genocide. It's the timing of the resolution that stinks to high heaven.

If Republicans pushed this in the past, and the situation was the same in Iraq, those who did are just as treasonous as Pelosi and crew are now. But back in 2000, when you claim Hastert pushed it, doing so didn't amount to putting our troops in harm's way.

If it indeed made it through committee two years ago, that's a different story. And the republican-led committee was just as guilty of bad timing as the dems are now. The only difference is, I don't believe the republicans back then were pushing the resolution in order to endanger the war effort.

It's the ulterior-motive hypocrisy that makes this move, at this time, so evil.

Anonymous said...

Ditto to Marcus Aurelius's comment.

vast rightwing conspirator said...

The comments about Republicans previously trying to pass a similar resolution fall on deaf ears here. I challenge anyone to name me a Republican in either the House or the Senate who is as obsessed with losing this war as the entire Democrat party is.

A resolution declaring the mass murder of possibly a million Armenians has merit. It's the TIMING of this resolution that reflects the treasonous motive, in the middle of a war, when one of the countries that is crucial to victory will react in a way that will put the outcome in doubt.

Montypython2 said...

Congress is now officially a national security risk.

2ndAmendmentDefender said...

Our allies need to watch their backs with the Dems in control. Obama wants to bomb Pakistan too.

calbrindisi said...

The new Democrat motto: Defeat at any cost.

Anonymous said...

The Democrats, along with the PKK, are provoking a Turkish invasion of Iraq, which would be devastating to the alliance and a disaster for U.S. war-on-terrorism policy. At the same time, Iranian Kurds aligned with another terrorist orgaization, PEJAK, are conducting attacks inside Iran, and Iran, like Turkey, has been responding with artillery fire into Iraq.

We might as well add congressional Democrats to our list of terror-supporting groups.

Al said...
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kathymlynczak said...

Good list, Al. There are many more to add to it, but you did better than I could have off the top of my head.

arlene albrecht said...

"Successful democracy depends on goodwill from both sides of the debate. That's now in short supply, at least for one party."

First of all, the editors of IBD ought to know that we're not a democracy. Also, success depends more on TRUTH than GOODWILL, and one party has lost the meaning of truth.

John Cooper said...

Armenians are not "well heeled"? Anybody ever heard of Kirk Kerkorian, the founder and owner of MGM Mirage?. The "father of the megaresort"? The richest resident of Los Angeles?

And then there's Kevork Hovnanian Top ten homebuilder in USA. Founder/Chairman of the Board/Director at Hovnanian Enterprises, Inc. Red Bank, New Jersey.

Anna Eshoo, Congresswoman

Adam Benjamin, Congressman

Then there's all these people

Please visit the Armenian American Political Action Committee web site and take a moment to watch the slide show on the right side of the page. It's a who's who in American Politics, in photo opportunities with ARMENPAC dignitaries.

What were Laura Bush, Bill Richardson, Hillary Clinton, Barak Obama, Bill Clinton, Steny Hoyer, Joe Biden, Mitt Romney, Bob Dole, George Dukmejian, George W. Bush all doing sucking up to people with no money and no clout, hmmmmm?

...and here's something else to think about.

"The State of California, home to the largest Armenian American community in the United States, holds nearly one-eighth of all voters nationwide."

Source: Armenian National Committee of America
Western Region


Most of you have probably heard of Forest Lawn Cemetary in Glendale, CA - where all the movie stars are buried. Not too long ago I had to arrange for a family member to be buried there.

In arranging for the funeral, they have a "menu" of music from which you can choose what you want to be played during the ceremony. They have "Traditional Protestant", "Traditional Catholic", Modern Christian", "Jewish" ...and "Armenian".

You see, the town of Glendale is now almost completely Armenian.

John Cooper said...

What this whole thing appears to be about is electoral votes in California.

From Pelosi Makes Political Misstep in Reversal on Armenian Genocide

~~~~~
"The legislation, which has been introduced for decades, often originates from California lawmakers, said John Pitney, a political science professor with Claremont McKenna College in Claremont, California. About 232,000 Armenian Americans live in the state, 54 percent of the U.S. total, according to 2006 Census data. ``Home-state politics is a large portion of it,'' Pitney said.

This year's resolution was co-sponsored by California Democrat Adam Schiff and Pelosi has said she promised him and other supporters that they would get a vote if the measure was approved by committee.

When it was approved in committee last week, the resolution had 226 co-sponsors, more that the 218 needed to pass. But by yesterday, more than 12 co-sponsors had withdrawn their support.

This week, Pelosi backed away from her pledge to advance the bill this year, saying it would be up to its sponsors to decide whether it comes up for a vote. Schiff said he would ask her to bring the measure to the floor only if he has enough votes to win.

Murtha said he is working to persuade Pelosi to drop the matter, and that as many as 60 Democrats would oppose the resolution and it would fail any vote of the full House.

``It's impractical at this point to go forward with it,'' Murtha said. "
~~~~~
...at least we can always count on Jack Murtha to cut and run.

Oh, The sponsor of the legislation - Adam Schiff - represents California's 29th congressional district: Glendale, Pasadena, Burbank, Altadena, Alhambra, Monterey Park, etc.

Clearly the little weasel cares more about getting re-elected than the good of his Country.

Minuteman23 said...

"Resolving" a genocide committed 90 years ago by an empire that no longer exists shows just how serious Pelosi is about confronting current genocides in places like Darfur, Rwanda, etc.

Anonymous said...

Cooper, even though the resolution might garner electoral votes in CA, I think that consideration was secondary to the dems' desire to weaken our position in Iraq. They will use any means, and stoop to any level, to embarrass the Bush administration and make retreat seem our only option. Enraging Turkey certainly fits that bill and passing this resolution would be the best way to do that.

Al said...
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Al said...
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john galt said...

Al, your argument is a non sequitur. The two cases are totally unrelated. The Ottoman Empire was broken up. It was a totally different entity than today's Turkey.

From your comments, you seem to have some kind of bias against Turkey and predisposition to look at Armenians as victims. Most of us are appalled at the genocide, but we see things 20/20.

Al said...
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john galt said...

The Jacksons, Dowds, "Kuchnicks" (I assume you meant Kucinich), etc. of this world make their "points" (such as they are) by avoiding facts and resorting to name calling and personal attacks.

The first 2 sentences of your response put you in the same category.

If you want to debate facts, I'll be here. If you want to resort to the tactics of the left, leave me out of your little mudslinging fest.

al said...
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Anonymous said...

You gotta give it to the Turks, some may perceive them to be dumb as rocks, but they've got balls. Again, they brought the world's supposed superpower to its knees.

Not only did they get us to back down on the Genocide resolution, but they passed their own resolution to invade Northern Iraq against all protests from our administration.

We politely ask the Turks not to make our lives harder in Iraq by invading it, and they tell us to f--- off. They threaten that they will make our lives harder in Iraq unless we withdraw a nonbinding humanitarian resolution that is 92 years overdue, and we withdraw it, and they still go ahead and make our lives harder in Iraq anyway.

ferdie said...
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Timothy said...

Their are a couple of different factors. The Turkish people are very nationalistic and place a lot of emphasis on their national identity. This nationalism is fostered in part to counteract Islamism. The Armenian genocide is a very taboo subject in Turkey, because most Turks see it as a smear campaign against them, their nation, and their ancestors. Turks are taught in their schools that many on both sides died, that it was a tragic consequence of a failing system embroiled in rebellion and world war, and that their was never any intent to systematically wipe out Armenians. Most non-Turkish historians see it otherwise, but that is what Turks taught and believe. It would be kind of like a foreign country recognizing American treatment of Indians as genocide, or the Mexican war and conquering and settlement of Mexican lands as wrong, or the Confederacy as evil and all about slavery (something that I would agree with but many southerners would find offensive.) And given that its genocide, the Turks place way more importance than we place even on any of those. A couple of modern day circumstances contribute to it. One if that Turkey is a secular Muslims country that doesn't feel like it quite fits into Europe or the Middle East. It is trying to join Europe and the EU, but is being held at arms length by many Europeans and many Turks are resentful because they think the EU is trying to keep itself a "Christian club" and that the Armenian genocide is being used as an excuse for that. Turks also fear that if the genocide is recognized Armenians use it to demand reparations and make territorial claims on Turkish lands that are part of a "greater Armenia".

In Turkish minds, it is nothing more than a smear and insult against them. One Turkish newspaper described it as something like a "resolution of hate" to give you an idea of how many Turks feel about it.

Anonymous said...

What does this tell us of Turkey's behavior, that the simple recognition of a crime attributable to a predecessor regime would cause them to chuck our alliance with them away?

Ferdie said...
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Anonymous said...

http://www.economist.com/images/20071020/4207FB2.jpg

“Our objective is not to attack this or that country,” explains a grim-faced guide. “It is to ensure recognition of the first genocide of the 20th century, that of 1.5m Armenians by the Turks.”

Anonymous said...

Playing Politics With Genocide

by Ralph Peters 10/17/07

http://www.exilestreet.com/Columns/Peters/20071017PetersGenocide.html

In the midst of the First World War, the Young Turks who had taken over the Ottoman Empire committed genocide against their Armenian subjects. At least a million Armenians were murdered - with nauseating cruelty - or died of abuse, heat, hunger and thirst.

The only reason any survived was that the Turks lacked the administrative skills and technologies to kill everyone. Not every captive fit into the burning churches. On the death marches across Anatolia into the Syrian desert, guards ran out of bullets. And even sadists grew weary of bayoneting children and clubbing old men to death.

Contributor
Ralph Peters - Contributor
Ralph Peters is a retired Army officer and the author of 19 books, as well as of hundreds of essays and articles, written both under his own name and as Owen Parry. He is a frequent columnist for the New York Post and other publications. [go to Peters Index]
Women were raped by the tens of thousands. Many were raped repeatedly. Then they were killed. Or enslaved. Or left to die of exposure by the roadside.

Ancient communities were annihilated. A magnificent culture - the remnants of the world's first Christian kingdom - drowned in blood.

Only Turks question this history. The eyewitness accounts are extensive - not only from Armenian survivors, but from American and German consuls and missionaries. The documentation is readily available (texts crowd one of my bookshelves).

Hitler cited the Armenian Genocide as an inspiration for the Holocaust - the lesson he drew was that the Turks got away with it. The world never intervened. Apologists for the Allies blamed the war. The truth is that the eyewitnesses went ignored: Armenian lives had less value then than do those of Darfur refugees today.

Last Wednesday, the Democrat-controlled House Foreign Affairs Committee passed a resolution formally declaring the Armenian tragedy what it was: genocide. Speaker Nancy Pelosi intends to bring the resolution to a vote on the floor, after which it would go to the Senate.

We need to stop it. It's a travesty and a betrayal. Of Armenian-Americans. And of our troops.

Make no mistake: I'm on the Armenian side in the court of history. When the same resolution came up in years past, I supported it. The Armenian survivors - their descendents, at this point - deserve justice.

And I have no sympathy with the Turks. The Turks are jerks. After the United States supported them unswervingly for more than a half-century, they stiffed us the single time we needed help - when we asked to move an Army division through Turkey on the eve of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

And the Ankara government has led an internal campaign of anti-Americanism far more lurid and vicious than the old Soviet bloc's anti-Western propaganda. It's not just Turkey's Islamists, but its secular nationalists, too. The anti-American hatred spewing from the Turkish media is uglier than Barbra Streisand at four in the morning.

The Turks tormented their Kurdish minority for decades - and express outrage when Kurds respond. Now they're threatening to invade northern Iraq, while whining that honor-killings, pervasive corruption and anti-Western venom shouldn't deny them membership in the EU.

Despite all that, we've got to kill this resolution. It's not the wording - but the timing.

Legislation similar to this has come up repeatedly in Congress, yet it's always been defeated - in 2000, because of pressure from the Clinton administration. But if the resolution passes the House and Senate now, the Turks plan to evict us from Incirlik airbase in southeastern Turkey, to halt our military over-flight privileges and to shut down the supply routes into northern Iraq.

That's what the Democrats are aiming at. This resolution isn't about justice for the Armenians. Not this time. It's a stunningly devious attempt to impede our war effort in Iraq and force premature troop withdrawals.

The Dems calculate that, without those flights and convoys, we won't be able to keep our troops adequately supplied. Key intelligence and strike missions would disappear.

The Pentagon might be able to improvise other options. But the loss of the base and those routes would definitely hurt our troops. Severely. And we'd be more reliant than ever on a single, vulnerable lifeline running from Kuwait.

It's a brilliant ploy - the Dems get to stab our troops in the back, but lay the blame off on the Turks. They pretend they're responding to their Armenian-American constituents - while actually moving to placate MoveOn.org.

For the Democrats in Congress, it looks like a cost-free strategy. For our troops? When did the Dems give a damn about our troops? This resolution isn't a stand in favor of historical justice. It's an end-run that ducks behind the bench. It's one of the most cynical betrayals in our legislative history - of our troops, of Armenian-Americans, of the Kurds under threat from the Turkish military and of the people of Iraq.

We can't let Pelosi & Co. get away with this one. We need to call the Dems on it and make it clear that we, the people, know what they're trying to do.

Every human being with a drop of Armenian blood deserves justice. This isn't it,

Anonymous said...

A lot of thought provoking stuff here.

cw-patriot said...

Timothy --

An excellent recitation of facts, and quality insightful commentary, successfully avoiding 'emotional' evaluations.

Thank you for your superb, informative contribution to this thread.

~ joanie

cw-patriot said...

All that is being debated and asserted here is relevant (and thank you all for the excellent information and opinion). To my mind, the most relevant facts here are:

(1) that a mass genocide of Armenians (with between 1 and 1.5 million people being tortured and killed) did indeed take place nearly a hundred years ago.

(2) America did little to intervene in the genocide, but did provide significant aid and comfort afterwards (with the value of doing so after the fact being questionable, at best).

(3) The Ottoman Empire, over which 'Turks' of that time ruled, also consisted of much of the Middle East, North Africa, and southeast Europe. The empire was an enemy of America during World War I, and a staunch ally of Germany. With that said, and despite Turkey's unwillingness to accept complete responsibility for the Armenian atrocity, and the skewed nature of their 'education' system in teaching about that event, there isn't one Turkish citizen alive today who had anything even remotely to do with the slaughter.

(4) Although Turkey has been a fickle ally, at best, of late, and although they wield inordiante power over the U.S. State Department, they are virtually indispensible in our battle against Al-Qaida in Iraq and Afghanistan.

(5) Nancy Pelosi and her minions are determined to bring the Iraq war to and ignominious end, because, in the end, embarrassing George Bush (not a difficult feat, in and of itself) and amassing more power for leftist elites is far more urgent and appealing to elite One-Worlders than fighting Islamic fascism and preserving American sovereignty.

Even Mesrob Mutafyan, who some consider to be the 'spokesperson' for Turkey's Armenian community, has stated that his people frown on the genocide resolution, because it has much more to do with the current American political climate than genuine remorse that the tragedy was allowed to happen.

~ joanie

john cooper said...

timothy: Good, thoughtful post. Thanks.

Al said...
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cw-patriot said...

Al, as you have often done here, you took a few words out of a very long post and magnified them, as if they represented the poster’s entire viewpoint. Your penchant to ‘evaluate’ posters whose backgrounds you know nothing about -- which you did earlier on this thread to John Galt:

What you know about Turkey you could write on the head of a pin,

and are now doing to Timothy:

Your Timothy is a leftwinger from the site rightnation.com He buys a membership there so he can bait the enemy

-- accomplishes nothing more than causing readers to question your own motives and authenticity.

One of Timothy’s points appeared to be that modern America accepting official ‘guilt’ for treatment of Indians, or the results of the Mexican War, or the idea that the Civil War was all about slavery, would be similar to the current crusade to somehow punish modern Turkey for a genocide that occurred under the Ottoman Empire nearly a hundred years ago. I consider that a point well taken (despite my disagreement with Timothy’s view that the Civil War was indeed all about slavery).

Timothy was also attempting to explain how many Turks regard this genocide resolution – and, in doing so, listed several bases for their anti-resolution stance, not endorsing those bases as legitimate, but simply explaining that they exist in modern Turkey (i.e., the fact that Turks are taught to believe ‘facts’ that foster Turkish nationalism rather than ‘facts’ that are based on past reality, etc.)

Yes, I disagreed with a few minor points that Timothy made, but his ideas, in general, were excellent.

Turkey's modern relations with the U.S. have generally been sculpted by two forces: (1) Turkish military defeat and (2) the need, on both sides, for short-term alliances.

Yes, in World War I, Turkey allied itself with Germany against us. In the early years of World War II, they signed a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany shortly before Hitler's invasion of Russia. Turkey’s past, and even more recent, behaviors provide us no indication that they can be trusted as anything more than part of a temporary ‘alliance of convenience’.

And no, Turkey is not a genuine democracy – at least not in Western terms. Turkey has been pressured (just as Iraq is being pressured) into splicing ‘democratic reform’ into an entrenched autocratic government. And, as a result, Turkey is a precarious ‘democratic’/Islamic ‘ally’ in some ways very similar to Pakistan. Unfortunately, we need such ‘allies’. This is no longer the World War II or Cold War era.

Today Turkey’s unproclaimed political ideology consists of a vehement form of ‘nationalism’ based on preserving Turkic ethnicity, and, as a result, Turkey’s history of ‘ethnic cleansing’ is brutal. Christians (particularly Armenian and Greek Christians, during the past hundred years) have suffered terribly as a result. And Kurds continue to be suppressed today.

With that said, Turkey's ‘secularism’ (and we can debate that term forever – so, if you would prefer to use another one, feel free to do just that) has at least successfully created a barrier that protects the military elite from answering to Islamic religious leaders. Ever since Ataturk founded modern Turkey in the 20s, Turkey’s real power has been wielded by its military. It is generally believed that Turkey’s military leadership provided sensitive intelligence information, and allowed Israel to use Turkish airspace, for Israel’s recent attack on Syria – illustrating the pressing need for such precarious/flimsy ‘alliances’. Turkey is neither a democracy nor a ‘moderate Islamic’ state. It is run by atheist and agnostic generals, who, at least for the time being, are helping us in our battle to contain Islamic fascism.

This is not our grandfathers’ America, nor our grandfathers’ world. Alliances are no longer written in stone, or based upon common long-term strategic interests, or common values or heritages. They are often fragile, and formed with former (even recent) enemies, who have something themselves to gain from the strategic connection. The ‘alliance’ we currently enjoy with Turkey is a critical one, but not one upon which we can depend. And whether or not we approve of Turkey’s past crimes, or present government structure, is, unfortunately, irrelevant.

~ sucker #2

robmaroni said...

Great rebuttal, CW.

Anonymous said...

This is not our grandfathers’ America, nor our grandfathers’ world. Alliances are no longer written in stone, or based upon common long-term strategic interests, or common values or heritages. They are often fragile, and formed with former (even recent) enemies, who have something themselves to gain from the strategic connection. The ‘alliance’ we currently enjoy with Turkey is a critical one, but not one upon which we can depend. And whether or not we approve of Turkey’s past crimes, or present government structure, is, unfortunately, irrelevant.

Sometimes the truth hurts, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the truth.

Lori_Gmeiner said...

Change your screen name back to "joanie," CW. "Sucker #2" doesn't fit and nobody will listen to what you say. ;)

marcus aurelius said...

Joanie, you make a good point about the military calling the shots in Turkey. We need to hope it stays that way and that it benefits the generals to provide us strategic aid.

Proudpodunknative said...

Al, you ought to stop cutting and pasting posts from other sites just to stir up controversy here. That's kind of underhanded, don't you think?

Al said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
marcus aurelius said...

Al, your posts here indicate that you are closed-minded, tunnel-visioned, and unwilling to acknowledge any other posters' points.

Absolutely nothing in your above post refutes anything that C.W. said in hers. She agrees with you that Turkey has committed genocide, ethnic cleansing, and worse, but she insists that we have to use their "alliance" in order to fight the war on terror.

But you then list a bunch of crimes the Turkish government has committed and then call them "your Turks," as if C.W. and other posters believe the Turkish government is blameless and pure.

You need to get down off your self constructed pedestal and start reading what others write. And while you're at it, stop hurling insults at other posters-- including the author of this blog-- just because YOU misinterpret what they're saying. You are arrogant and condescing, not to mention quite often wrong.

I'd prepare myself for one of your personal slurs, except for the fact that they are inconsequential, baseless and generally silly.

kathymlynczak said...

Al-

You have a list of murders, etc. committed by either individuals or the Turkish government. Who is that list meant for? Is it meant for Joanie, who just wrote that the Turkish government is evil but that the Turkish military has to be courted as an ally? I don't get the point of your list. I don't think there's anyone here who disagrees with it, or needs to read it.

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

It's time to let Al's rantings stand for what they are. He reads what he wants to read and rants against comments that don't even exist.

Sammy said...

Anonymous,

Each of the eight Sec of State were and are ardents Arabists, as is the State Dept as a whole.

I certainly do not consider Madeleine Albright, Jim Baker, Warren Christopher, Kissinger or
Colin L. Powell to be friends of American interests.
But they certainly worked tirelessly for Muslim interests, as their records showed.

marcus aurelius said...

Set the record straight, Al. Even though that is not what has been said here, you obviously believe that most or all of the posters here are pro Turkey, and that we are all unaware of the history of World War I, World War II, and the genocide that Turkey committed against Armenia.

Are you in favor of the resolution? You seem to be implying that, because the U.S. Secretaries of State that you listed above are not in favor of the resolution, the rest of us who are not in favor of it either (for completely different reasons) are of the same ilk as they?

Guilt by association, huh?

Well then you are a generalized Pelosi/Reid sympathizer for the same reason. So what are you doing here?

Anonymous said...

Guilt by association, huh?

Well then you are a generalized Pelosi/Reid sympathizer for the same reason. So what are you doing here?


Touché!

Max Shapiro said...

Al, I lived in Israel for almost 22 years. I am no friend of Turkey’s government past or present. But you are allowing your hatred of Turkey to color your reading of some of the posts here. You are arguing against opinions that have not been expressed.

I am almost 82 years old and I have learned during my life the truth of the Hebrew proverb: “The best way to know a man is to watch him when he is angry.”

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Al said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Al said...
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Max Shapiro said...

Al, I suspect that I would agree with your answers to all of the questions you posed. And I suspect that almost every reader on this blog would too. The fact that you believe you are "educating" anyone here with those questions suggests that you haven't read (in order to understand) any of the posts you have been rudely challenging here. Your "LOL" at the end of your latest post is as inappropriate as much of the rest of what you have written here.

I don't want to sound arrogant myself (and G_d forgive me if I do by saying this) but I suspect that I, and many of my family who perished during the Nazi regime, have witnessed much more atrocity firsthand than you will ever witness or read about so please do not preach to me or "LOL" about anything I write.

I am finished with this topic where you are concerned.

cw-patriot said...

To all --

The 'deleted comments' above were made by someone who chose to be argumentative rather than attempting civilized discourse.

The final straw occurred when he sneared at the tactfully-presented sentiments of a genuine American war hero, four members of whose immediate family met their deaths in gas chambers during World War II, and who has lobbied and personally sacrificed (with time, boundless energy and finances), for more than sixty years, in order to defend Israel from extermination -- with more conviction than anyone else I know.

This blog was created in order to recognize and support such heroes, not to condescend to, or ridicule, them.

~ joanie

robmaroni said...

Good move, Joanie.

LouBarakos said...

We all despise the extortion the Muslim world can commit, but some of us despise the extortion committed by our own liberal politicians even more because the end result is the same but the treason is disgusting.

3timesalady said...

I am so sorry this disruptor has forced you to delete so many comments Joanie. Please don't let it discourage you from keeping your blog unmoderated. Hopefully he will just go away.

Luis said...

Joanie,

Excellent post.

Although this is obviously a very controversial subject both in America and other parts of the world I am glad you raised it.

Firstly it is true that a huge number of Armenian's were killed by Turks around 100 years ago. This was evil and was genocide using any conventional criteria.

The subject divides Europe as much as it does in America. In Paris there is at least one highly prominent memorial to the Armenians and the French are the most opposed nation to Turkey joining the EU. Other countries, Britain included, acknowledge the reality of history but are more pragmatic towards modern day Turkey.

I have visited Turkey on holiday twice in 2 years. As a British tourist occasionally stopped at roadblocks designed to prevent terrorist attacks, the military always treated me courteously and I felt an almost friendly attitude as I was both a tourist and a citizen of an allied country.

Modern Turkey in the main is a country of civilised open people happy to meet people from all other countries. As a nation they do have a problem with denial but then again perhaps that is not a unique issue- what about Britain's record in Ireland a further century earlier ?

It is also worth noting that modern Turkey contains many original sites important to early Christianity and while a muslim nation these sites are all protected and maintained by the Turkish state. I visited Ephesus last year.

In the main though Turkey has been a good ally to the West especially in the Cold War. Turkish families are being bereaved by the actions of the PKK and on any normal grounds the Turks should have the right of self-defence and to attack terrorists in lawless border regions.

Finally I would not want to gloss over the major crimes in Turkish history. They happened. However the timing of a move to formally call this genocide is strange. Anyone with a basic grasp of Turkish history has known about this for a long time.

So why now ? What is the real motivation ?

I think you answer this well Joanie.

John Cooper said...

Turkish Prime Minister warns US: we will attack Kurdish rebels in Iraq

"Turkey will launch military action against Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq despite frantic appeals for restraint from America and Nato, its Prime Minister has told The Times.

Speaking hours before the PKK, the Kurdish Workers’ Party, killed at least 17 more Turkish soldiers yesterday, Recep Tayyip Erdogan said that Turkey had urged the US and Iraqi governments repeatedly to expel the separatists but they had done nothing. Turkey’s patience was running out and the country had every right to defend itself, he said. “Whatever is necessary will be done,” he declared in an interview. “We don’t have to get permission from anybody.”

The reader responses following the article are very thought-provoking.

cw-patriot said...

Thank you, all, for the excellent commentary on this thread. And thank you also for understanding the need to delete some of the comments.

cw-patriot said...

Thank you for sharing your personal observations, Luis. Your visit to Ephesus, especially, must have been fascinating.

And the questions you raise about the 'real motivation' behind the democrats' desire for a genocide resolution are good ones. Even those 'across the pond' can see that some American lawmakers are interested in accomplishing something evil and underhanded by passing this resolution, and they are simply attempting to use Armenian-Americans community as pawns.

As always, thank you for your valuable insights.

~ joanie

Anonymous said...

Eliminate some more.

John Cooper said...

It seems Nancy Pelosi and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad are on the same side of this particular conflict:

Ahmadinejad Cuts 2-Day Visit to Armenia Short

"YEREVAN, Armenia — Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad cut short his two-day visit to Armenia on Tuesday, an Armenian presidential spokesman said.

The Armenian government had expected Ahmadinejad to address parliament and, in what was likely to cause controversy, plant a sapling at a memorial commemorating the victims of what Armenians consider genocide.

Viktor Sogomonian, press secretary of Armenian President Robert Kocharian, gave no reason for the Iranian president's decision to skip both planned events and return to Iran.

Russia's ITAR-Tass news agency, citing an unnamed source, said the decision was connected with unexpected developments in Iran."

Is there any doubt that had the "genocide" resolution passed, Pelosi would be right there with Ahmadinejad planting a sapling of her own.

Anonymous said...
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Sammy said...
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cw-patriot said...

Al/Sammy/Sandra/Larry, et al –

Your posts have been welcome here for two reasons: (1) ninety-nine percent of them have been extraordinarily informative and intelligent, and (2) I do not believe in moderation or censorship, except in extreme circumstances. The one percent of your posts that have not fallen under (1) have fallen under (2).

I will not defend myself, or other posters here – most of whom I know personally – except to say that in this, your latest resort to invective and condescension, you have attacked and ridiculed, among others, an elderly man who has known personal tragedy, experienced firsthand the heartache of genocide, sacrificed in order to preserve human life and liberty, and exhibited personal heroism, in a manner that is second to none.

That you and your Detroit friend are ‘sensitive’ about the issue of the Armenian genocide is apparent. Yet there are equally ‘sensitive’ American patriots who recognize that the timing of the recent genocide resolution defines it as nothing more than a grotesquely evil political ploy, crafted to use a monumental human tragedy to increase the power of the American leftist elite, as well as threatening to further imperil American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It is your right to infer that those of us who have expressed that belief are therefore (1) in denial that an Armenian genocide even occurred, (2) bigoted against the Armenian people, (3) uneducated about world history, and/or (4) Arabist sympathizers.

It is also your right to infer that, by my deleting of comments that label good and decent people who are nothing less than modern American patriots as any of the above, I am employing the type of censorship that is commonly used as a ‘tool of the left wing’.

But you will no longer be exercising those two rights on this particular forum. Any future comments of yours, no matter their content, will be summarily deleted.

~ joanie

robmaroni said...

Well said, Joanie.

daveburkett said...

Sorry you had to do that, CW.

smithy said...

Sorry you had to do that, CW.

Ditto here, but certainly understood and agreed with.

John Cooper said...

I use my own name on my posts. If a future Clinton administration is watching and cataloging, well, I'm old enough that I don't much care.

But I really wonder about the motives of people who use several aliases on an Internet forum. What's the purpose of doing that?

Is this...like...a Sybil thing?

Anonymous said...

You do good work here, cwpatriot.

calbrindisi said...

2 GOP Lawmakers Allege Democrats Have Ties to Terrorism

RICHMOND -- Two Republican state legislators are accusing Gov. Timothy M. Kaine and other Democrats of embracing radical Islamic organizations that support terrorism, an allegation that has outraged the governor and Muslim leaders, who say the GOP is resorting to fear-mongering to win votes.

As Republicans work to retain their majorities in the General Assembly, the two delegates from the Shenandoah Valley say they are conducting an investigation into Democrats' ties to the Muslim American Society and Dar Al Hijrah Islamic Center, both in Falls Church ......

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/20/AR2007102001154_pf.html

arlene albrecht said...

When you hit a nerve there are always people who come out with both guns blazing. I wish I could have read the deleted comments just to know what caliber he was using, but I know your judgment was right.

danthemangottschall said...

But I really wonder about the motives of people who use several aliases on an Internet forum. What's the purpose of doing that?

I know people who've done that on other forums just to get a little attention for a column they thought deserved to be read by more people, but I don't think that was the case here.

I'm sorry you have to moderate Joanie.

Max Shapiro said...

I'm sorry for playing a part in this problem, Joanie. I will try to avoid such confrontation from now on, if possible. I appreciate this web site very much.

Anonymous said...

Don't change anything here. It's good the way it is.

cw-patriot said...

No apologies necessary, Max! It is a privilege to have you posting here.

Anonymous said...

Turkey Christian Missionaries Horrifically Tortured Before Killings

The three Christians who were martyred in Turkey last week were horribly tortured for three hours prior to being killed, Christian Today has learned, as details continue to emerge.

by Daniel Blake
April 26, 2007, 12:05 (BST)

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/turkey.christian.missionaries.horrifically.tortured.before.killings/10523-2.htm

“They arrived, and reportedly, after Necati read a chapter from the Bible the assault began. The young men tied Ugur, Necati, and Tilman’s hands and feet to chairs as they videoed their work on their cellphones. What followed in the next three hours is beyond belief,” an ICC release has said.
ICC then continued to describe the nature of the torture, which included disembowelment, emasculation, and the slicing open of various orifices.
“Tilman was stabbed 156 times, Necati 99 times and Ugur’s stabs were too numerous to count. Finally, their throats were sliced from ear to ear, heads practically decapitated,”
ICC reports.
The ICC description goes on: “Meanwhile, another believer arrived at the office around 12.30pm. The door was locked from the inside, and his key would not work. He phoned and though it had connection on his end he did not hear the phone ringing inside.
“He called cell phones of his brothers and finally Ugur answered his phone. ‘We are not at the office. Go to the hotel meeting. We are there. We will come there,’ he said cryptically. As Ugur spoke he heard in the telephone’s background weeping and a strange snarling sound.
“He phoned the police, and the nearest officer arrived in about five minutes. He pounded on the door, ‘Police, open up!’ Initially the officer thought it was a domestic disturbance. At that point they heard another snarl and a gurgling moan.”
ICC continued: “The police understood that sound as human suffering, prepared the clip in his gun and tried over and over again to burst through the door. One of the frightened assailants unlocked the door for the policeman, who entered to find a grisly scene."
The throats of Tilman, Necati and Ugur had been slit and although Ugur was still alive, he died soon after from his horrific injuries.
After Tillman’s wife learned of the brutal death of her husband she publicly forgave the killers repeating the words of Jesus Christ, “They know not what they do.”
Jeff King, ICC President, stated, “The contrast between the acts of the killers and the forgiveness of Tillman’s wife is glaring and in the end seems to be at the centre of this story for us.”