tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post2215340982571206564..comments2023-10-30T07:54:27.317-04:00Comments on Allegiance and Duty Betrayed:: Georgia on My Mindjoaniehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11914891807184694081noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-59835845404595753152008-08-28T13:06:00.000-04:002008-08-28T13:06:00.000-04:00Thanks for the kind comments, Barry.~ joanieThanks for the kind comments, Barry.<BR/><BR/>~ joaniejoaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11914891807184694081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-8915256956869204432008-08-27T22:29:00.000-04:002008-08-27T22:29:00.000-04:00First_Salute:I appreciate your references to the p...First_Salute:<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your references to the perspective of historians being dependent upon just how far they suppose it relevant to turn the clock back. Very interesting! (Which explains, in part, why math is so much more enjoyable than history in some respects. Beginning one’s deliberations with a set of axioms that require no explanation or proof is so much less subjective.) :)<BR/><BR/><I>Pick whatever you want, of oil and water, be it tribal conflicts, racial conflicts, or religious conflicts, the brutal Stalinist dictators use the readily available useful idiots to champion such causes to excess thought-less-ness and repeatedly bloody endings ... at some point of time on the clock ... over which such matters remain unsettled, and the warriors will fight anew.</I><BR/><BR/>Seemingly over-simplified, it really isn’t. And doesn’t history repeat itself ad infitnitum, thanks to the clever tyrants and the eternal overabundance of useful idiots.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the interesting (an overused adjective, to be sure – yet entirely appropriate in this case), insightful commentary. Beautifully done.<BR/><BR/>~ joaniejoaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11914891807184694081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-39824927923521447022008-08-27T18:25:00.000-04:002008-08-27T18:25:00.000-04:00Joanie,Thank you for your kind comments.May your b...Joanie,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your kind comments.<BR/><BR/>May your blog continue as a forum for intelligent debate rather than name calling- I am sorry you had to ban someone today.<BR/><BR/>My concern is that the West's current approach lacks some consistency. Of greater concern is the fact that the West has precious little spare capacity to challenge agression it wants to challenge. This would seem to me to be the biggest issue in advance of setting meaningful "red lines" for Russia and others.<BR/><BR/>LuisLuishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13101628574058713071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-84139126741722826582008-08-27T14:40:00.000-04:002008-08-27T14:40:00.000-04:00Russian-backed paramilitaries 'ethnically cleansin...<A HREF="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4621592.ece" REL="nofollow">Russian-backed paramilitaries 'ethnically cleansing villages'</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-64375446873369713252008-08-27T12:49:00.000-04:002008-08-27T12:49:00.000-04:00This is a great thread with lots of information. ...This is a great thread with lots of information. I'm sorry you had to ban someone, Joanie but I know you must have had good reason.<BR/><BR/>I don't think most Americans have any idea at all what is going on between Russia and Georgia, or what the history is of that region. They're too busy following the exploits of the Hollywood crowd, or (less likely) the lies being perpetrated at the convention in Denver. <BR/><BR/>We're going to pay a terrible price for our ignorance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-56902061763040168242008-08-27T12:19:00.000-04:002008-08-27T12:19:00.000-04:00The Bear is Fishing<A HREF="http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/fladj11/Putin%20USSR/RussianBearFishing.jpg" REL="nofollow">The Bear is Fishing</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-17180234063934869292008-08-27T12:10:00.000-04:002008-08-27T12:10:00.000-04:00Luis,Your comments from your personal and informed...Luis,<BR/><BR/>Your comments from your personal and informed perspective are much appreciated. I will be sharing them with others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-87043164100507876572008-08-27T11:33:00.000-04:002008-08-27T11:33:00.000-04:00Sorry you had to do this Joanie, but you were pati...<I>Sorry you had to do this Joanie, but you were patient.</I><BR/><BR/>Ditto Joanie.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-89959818205234428642008-08-27T10:53:00.000-04:002008-08-27T10:53:00.000-04:00Sorry you had to do this Joanie, but you were pati...Sorry you had to do this Joanie, but you were patient.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-11313306509625650052008-08-27T10:16:00.000-04:002008-08-27T10:16:00.000-04:00"Shamyl" --I suspect that it has been your sickeni..."Shamyl" --<BR/><BR/>I suspect that it has been your sickening personal attacks and unwillingness to at least acknowledge honest debate from other points of view that have had you banned from countless other sites over the years. And no, I'll not defend or criticize the other posters resorting to calling you an "arrogant SOB". That label pales in comparison with the leaps you make regarding other posters' supposed ignorance, and the derisive laughter you employ when commenting on their posts.<BR/><BR/>You have been posting here, on and off, under various assumed names, for a long time. And yet, in <I>all</I> of that writing, I have yet to read a post of yours that says anything positive about <I>anything</I> written here, other than your own omniscient preaching. Your condescension, derisive tone, and attributing disgusting allegiances to posters whose opinions do not agree with yours, are appalling. That none of the dozens of regular posters here <I>ever</I> has a worthwhile idea that sparks a supportive response from you speaks volumes about your godlike point of view. <BR/><BR/>Once again, I suggest that you take your arrogance, condescension and closed-mindedness elsewhere. I allowed your return on this thread because I suspected that you might have a great deal of knowledge to share on this particular subject and might have been able to educate some of us – myself included.<BR/><BR/>People do not respond well to teachers whose primary aim is their own elevation, and who treat with derision those whose knowledge may be faulty, or less expansive. In that regard, you appear to be a very slow learner.<BR/><BR/>Once again, readers here will have to do without your contributions. I respect their dignity far more than I do anything you might add.<BR/><BR/>~ joaniejoaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11914891807184694081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-10690043181958562852008-08-27T09:39:00.000-04:002008-08-27T09:39:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-36199391264240893982008-08-27T09:15:00.000-04:002008-08-27T09:15:00.000-04:00You do good work.You do good work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-27515226661313363412008-08-27T02:42:00.000-04:002008-08-27T02:42:00.000-04:00Another insightful and excellently done piece Joan...Another insightful and excellently done piece Joanie.<BR/><BR/>Thanks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-67628006018128812442008-08-27T01:01:00.000-04:002008-08-27T01:01:00.000-04:00When I interpret the actions of a world leader as ...<B>When I interpret the actions of a world leader as scheming to expand his sphere of influence by concocting a reason to invade a neighboring nation, and planning to take charge of extremely strategic energy pathways under the guise of protecting the voices of an oppressed people, I am not obligated to consult the history books, or today’s newspaper, to see whether there are similar sovereignty/humanitarian ‘precedents’ during which my nation’s leaders responded differently than they are now.</B><BR/><BR/>BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-38434807184349545902008-08-27T00:49:00.000-04:002008-08-27T00:49:00.000-04:00Russia invaded Georgia in order to gain control of...Russia invaded Georgia in order to gain control of Caspian oil resources because their own oil resources, a major part of their exports, are being rapidly depleted.<BR/><BR/>Russia’s decision to go to war against their much smaller and weaker neighbor was all about oil. It didn’t have anything to do with Serbia, Montenegro, Kosovo, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, Italy, Portugal, Sierra Leon, Paraguay, Tonga, New Zealand, Cambodia or anything else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-87430055123308968142008-08-27T00:11:00.000-04:002008-08-27T00:11:00.000-04:00A simple question for those who are bringing up Ko...A simple question for those who are bringing up Kosovo:<BR/><BR/><B>if the U.S. had not attacked Kosovo, would Russia have not attacked Georgia?</B><BR/><BR/>Answer that they would not have and you need a reality check.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-89070199059561637132008-08-26T23:55:00.000-04:002008-08-26T23:55:00.000-04:00Thank you, First_Salute, for your in-depth histori...Thank you, First_Salute, for your in-depth historical analysis!<BR/><BR/>I am running on fumes, having had a very full day, so will respond as soon as I have time to do a response justice -- hopefully tomorrow.<BR/><BR/>~ joaniejoaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11914891807184694081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-52902323027501819912008-08-26T23:53:00.000-04:002008-08-26T23:53:00.000-04:00Luis,I have read your response here, as well as yo...Luis,<BR/><BR/>I have read your response here, as well as your essay on your own blog, and I am literally overwhelmed with the extent of your knowledge on the subject, and your ability to connect dots that many of us aren't even aware exist.<BR/><BR/>Thank you so much for your contribution here, and for your thoughtful, well-reasoned essay on London Calling. Your perspective is compelling.<BR/><BR/>I need to digest both before responding. Such is the depth of your eloquent arguments.<BR/><BR/>~ joaniejoaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11914891807184694081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-18626989993987489652008-08-26T23:50:00.000-04:002008-08-26T23:50:00.000-04:00One of the purposes of "sports," is to provide a v...One of the purposes of "sports," is to provide a venue for the hormones that rage over tribal differences; that venue falling under the principle of the rule of law - that the game have rules, that the rules be set and agreed to before the game starts, and all agree that, if and when the game starts, that principle applies for the duration of the game --- that the rules will not change, and the rules cannot be changed, until after the game concludes.<BR/><BR/>Part of what we call history, what we mean by history, is our study of what happened and "who struck John" - by turning back the clock, past-ward thru the events of the game.<BR/> <BR/>That study itself, becomes a game, a contest among historians, who delight in arguing their point, at the point, where they stop the re-winding clock.<BR/><BR/>Yet, entering into *that* game, includes the right of other historians to grasp the clock and re-wind it some more ... and suddenly, there you have it, an argument at point X, then finds itself defeated by simply re winding the clock to point X-1 (that's "x minus one" for those of you who have seen too many sci-fi movies).<BR/><BR/>Now I'll add to the above, this story from timesonline.co.uk: http://tinyurl.com/6qzqo2<BR/><BR/>I think it is interesting, because it is written by somebody who has "been there" (in the general theatre of conflict, which is the arena in which the arguments preceding mine, are playing), and the author has some insight, related in the story.<BR/><BR/>One in particular, stands out for me, because of what I learned some years ago during the cold war:<BR/><BR/>"Stalin drew the borders of the Soviet republics to ensure Georgia contained autonomous ethnic entities, South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Adzharia, through which Moscow could keep Georgia in order."<BR/><BR/>Perhaps Stalins gets too much credit, because his practice of bottling oil and water and leaving others to struggle with the problems of marketing and using it, was as old as the hills being fought over ... while commercial interests are also struggling to keep business going.<BR/><BR/>When, all Stalin did was borrow from history, an observation, that to control people and control the overall region, he could rely upon "The Bickers" to fight about their differences, like oil and water, so that he could use martial and police power "to rescue them" in their view while exercising authoritarianism, and usually quite brutally, FROM HIS VIEW.<BR/> <BR/>His desire, to be in control.<BR/><BR/>It is a practice of regents, and probably old Machiavelli (sp?) has it in ink.<BR/><BR/>What I know of it, in particular, my interest, was how Stalin set up, not only "the Palestinians," but also "the Jews" --- he actually supported BOTH, oil and water in a bottle, in order to leave such problems to "the West," knowing, Stalin did, that "the West" would argue over the commercial aspects, given that for the most part, "the West" was the new world, a departure from the norm for Stalinist brutal police state thuggery of the old ways.<BR/><BR/>Stalin knew well, because he was born and raised on one of "the world's" oldest trade routes, that terrorism is the oldest of economic means.<BR/><BR/>For example, if your mountain pass (A) to the sea port "sees" a decline in traffic (for which you have previously been richly rewarded in your charging fees for "safe transit") ... then elsewhere, your neighboring tribe and it's mountain pass (B), becomes the object of interest to "warring factions" (oil and water), as you, you clever self important-tate, you have engineered such un-happiness on racial and tribal lines, knowing that "the unrest" will slow up trade travel thru mountain pass B ... and sure enough, suddenly your revenues from *your mountain pass A* are "experiencing improvement."<BR/><BR/>At which point, if you are ambitious, you use that collateral as proof that some big power should loan you more money, and so on it goes, and it was, and it continues over the millenia.<BR/><BR/>Stalin "knew well" that "the West" would fall all over itself, as it sought its own trade routes around the Soviets and the inefficient burdens of communism/socialism, yet through regions mired down by warring factions.<BR/><BR/>He knew enough about "the West," that there were and would be enough "power brokers" who would fool themselves into thinking that somehow, always it is that somehow ..., such warring factions can be controled by making deals. Certainly, there are times when deals have been made, and there is relative peace, allowing trade.<BR/><BR/>Yet that is nothing for the kind of Stalinists whose ambitions lean more toward authoritarian power than money and power; wherever they see a problem for their own "economies," and so again, they apply the oldest of economic means and ratchet-up" the problems between the warring factions of mountain pass B - that would be "the Palestinians" in this corner, weighing in at ___ tons of trouble v. "the Jews" in that corner weighing in at ___ tons of trouble.<BR/><BR/>Along came, because of so much trouble at mountain pass B (generally on the eastern shores of "the Med," more attention being paid to mountain pass C (the Balkans) and mountain pass D (the southside of the Caucasus Mountains) --- more attention being paid, BOTH by the brutal Stalinist police-state dictators "in the former Soviet Union" as the competitors among commercial interests of "the West."<BR/><BR/>Pick whatever you want, of oil and water, be it tribal conflicts, racial conflicts, or religious conflicts, the brutal Stalinist dictators use the readily available useful idiots to champion such causes to excess thought-less-ness and repeatedly bloody endings ... at some point of time on the clock ... over which such matters remain unsettled, and the warriors will fight anew.<BR/><BR/>For "the West," these problems are agonizing.<BR/><BR/>For the brutal Stalinists - and fans of brutal Stalinism - it is something "to cheer about," and so, now ...<BR/><BR/>Where are you sitting, you might ask yourself?<BR/><BR/>- <BR/><BR/>First_SaluteAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-14311008106557134452008-08-26T23:40:00.000-04:002008-08-26T23:40:00.000-04:00All --Russia has bristled over Georgia's growing t...All --<BR/><BR/>Russia has bristled over Georgia's growing ties with the West, its application for NATO membership, and the oil pipeline. So Russia ratcheted up its support of the separatist regions in Georgia, issued Russian passports to many of those separatists, and stationed its own ‘peacekeepers’ in those regions to monitor the situation. The pre-planning for this invasion was exquisite. And anyone suggesting that it was a natural turn of events is living in a dream world.<BR/><BR/>Abkhazia and South Ossetia would not have sought autonomy from Georgia were it not for covert Russian support for the separatists since the early 90s. Russia supports the separatist movements in both and Russian forces are stationed in both. <BR/><BR/>Russia has felt threatened by Georgia’s overtures to the west, and, combining this with its desire to expand its dominion and control the oil and natural gas flow to the west, no other reason is necessary for the recent invasion.<BR/><BR/>As for Serbia/Kosovo ...<BR/><BR/>I hate what the U.S. did in Serbia. I was horrified at the Clinton administration’s policy. I am equally disgusted with Bush’s and Rice's policy regarding Kosovo’s independence. Clinton was a bastard. Bush is an idiot. And Rice is attempting to rival Albright in sheer incompetence.<BR/><BR/>Kosovo is historically the heart of Serbia. When Muslim Albanians flooded into Kosovo after World War II with an extremely high level of illegal immigration and high birth rates (hmm ... sound familiar?), and the KLA began their aggressions against Serbs, the Albanians claimed persecution when the Serbs fought back in self defense. Clinton listened, and, in combination with his need to shift the focus from his domestic crimes, intervened ... resulting in the long-term repercussions that even he couldn’t envision. But Bill Clinton’s actions in Serbia do not grant eternal <I>carte blanche</I> to do what the Russians are doing.<BR/><BR/>Applying ‘precedent’ in a situation like this may be morally justified, but it is suicidal. Georgia is related to our, and Western Europe’s, national security interests. Kosovo was not. Doesn’t justify what was done there. Merely a statement of fact. The barbaric, and idiotic, decisions made by past and present American presidents do not diminish that fact. The people of the West must look beyond the garbage their leaders often attempt to pass off as prudent, consistent policy (the most recent abhorrent examples of which have been caused by American presidents who were more interested in ‘wag the dog’ politics, and one-world-oriented policies) to their own survival.<BR/><BR/>I care about the lack of principled leadership by every president who has been in office since the late eighties. They have spat on, and showed a cavalier indifference toward, Americans every bit as much as they have spat upon the oppressed of other nations. <BR/> <BR/>When I interpret the actions of a world leader as scheming to expand his sphere of influence by concocting a reason to invade a neighboring nation, and planning to take charge of extremely strategic energy pathways <I>under the guise of protecting the voices of an oppressed people</I>, I am not obligated to consult the history books, or today’s newspaper, to see whether there are similar sovereignty/humanitarian ‘precedents’ during which my nation’s leaders responded differently than they are now.<BR/><BR/>Modern America’s leadership is fickle, hypocritical, self-serving, and, for the most part, disinterested in morality or consistency. They are more interested in promoting a global government, and amassing personal power. Whether the Bush administration’s decisions follow a similar or different set of rules than those made by the Clinton administration generally depends on which way the wind is blowing.<BR/><BR/>This isn’t a question of hypocrisy, or morality. It is a question of survival. What is occurring in Georgia is a threat to the security of the West and an example of Russian aggression. And we in the West, in large part as a result of the past twenty years of national ‘leadership’ gone astray, are looking down a long tunnel, at the end of which lies our extinction. Call it self-serving it you like (you’d be right), but avoiding that abyss is just about the paramount consideration in my opinion of any world event – including one in which Russia is seeking to obtain a stranglehold on energy supplies.<BR/> <BR/>This is not really about Georgian freedom or Georgian sovereignty. It is about Caspian oil. And Russia’s goal in this invasion has absolutely nothing to do with righting any wrongs that have been perpetrated on the people of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and everything to do with expanding her sphere of influence, and obtaining the ability to dictate to the West. Oil and natural gas are the definition of wealth and might. And he who controls their flow wields unmitigated power. <BR/> <BR/>I have little time for those trying to justify the Russians' behavior, or for people still fighting the Kosovo war.joaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11914891807184694081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-53942661370934507802008-08-26T22:26:00.000-04:002008-08-26T22:26:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-57717921845470219982008-08-26T22:18:00.000-04:002008-08-26T22:18:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-46405115897083023412008-08-26T19:03:00.000-04:002008-08-26T19:03:00.000-04:00I am slightly hesitant to post a comemnt on this v...I am slightly hesitant to post a comemnt on this very well written article, in the light of all the comments that precede it !<BR/><BR/>However here goes- and please keep in mind I have just returned from a week in Moscow and my in-laws are both Russian and Ukrainian (real life does not always put families entirely one side or other of international borders.<BR/><BR/>I do feel it is possible to take issue with the leadership of Saakashvili in his recent brave/foolish assault on Tskhinvili. I also realise that the Caucasus as a whole is very troubled. Chechnya includes Islamic extremists and as recently as 2004, 300 Russian children died as a result of terrorism and some incompentence at a school in North Ossetia (Beslan). Therefore permit the Russians to be a little jaded about this region.<BR/><BR/>All Russians, Ukrainians and all other nationalities of the Soviet Union were also governed by a rather infamous Georgian, Joseph Stalin whose statue still looks over the town square in Gori and past which Russian tanks rumbled last week.<BR/><BR/>Therefore this is a truly messy and complicated region.<BR/><BR/>That said I do realise there is a bigger agenda here and Russia needs to know for certain at what point the West will step in an prevent its advances.<BR/><BR/>As someone who has been exposed to different sides of this argument but remains concerned about the liberty of Eastern Europe in general, I would say the Western response has been rather loud but rather hollow so far.<BR/><BR/>The real wake up call and the real issue to me is that even in the 21st Century military force can prove decisive and not only for the "good guys". All nations that value freedom therefore need to focus on the weakened and overstretched nature of their armed forces and seek to address that first.<BR/><BR/>Only then can we set meaningful boundaries to Russian expansion as well as other emerging threats.<BR/><BR/>Until then I am sorry to say that those with real power in Moscow will be fairly unconcerned about Western "concerns". After all we continue to pay Russia's bills every time we drive our cars or heat our homes (at least in Europe)<BR/><BR/>These are worrying times. Thank Joanie as always for your insight.<BR/><BR/>I will continue to read all the views expressed here with interest.Luishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13101628574058713071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-65251645373408716602008-08-26T17:20:00.000-04:002008-08-26T17:20:00.000-04:00Your use of the standard leftwing ploy of attackin...<I>Your use of the standard leftwing ploy of attacking the 'mental' status of whoever does not agree with you is not impressive.</I><BR/><BR/>You're damn right I "don't agree with Russia." I had grandparents in Ukraine 75 years ago.<BR/><BR/>As for labeling people "leftwing," I'll let the readers here decide whose arguments today fit that description. You are a shill. I don't understand what you're doing at a conservative weblog.<BR/><BR/>Oops! I left myself wide open for the "ad hominem" label....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28785049.post-16217911378466206432008-08-26T15:55:00.000-04:002008-08-26T15:55:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com